The question of why Britain’s called Great Britain popped up in a comment thread, and if I were a better person I’d go back and figure out where it was and link to whoever raised it (it was a British reader in case that strikes you as being worth knowing) but I’m crazed lately. I made a note to do sixty seconds of research on the topic, forgot to copy the link into my notes, and here I am, without a clue where we were at the time.
Sorry.
But the question persists. What are we talking about when we say “Great Britain”?
If you wander around London long enough, you’ll eventually stumble into a street called Great Russell Street. It’s not a particularly big street, but I’m assuming it’s bigger than (not great) Russell Street, which you’ll also stumble into if you stumble long enough. (All this stumbling relies on the same principal as those thousand monkey on typewriters who will eventually produce the entire works of Shakespeare, assuming you can convince monkeys to type. And assuming I can get you to wander long enough. You’re welcome to stop for tea as often as you like if that helps. Or a beer.)
Great, my friends, isn’t a value judgment in either context. It means big. Big honkin’ Russell Street, Big honkin’ Britain.
The first person to use great in the context of Britain seems to have been Ptolemy, who wasn’t writing in English so we’re fudging our facts here, but it’s interesting anyway. He called what we now know as England, Scotland, and Wales (and Cornish nationalist would add Cornwall)—in other words, the bigger landmass hereabouts—Great Britain, and Ireland—the smaller one—Little Britain.
Then everyone forgot about it for centuries. They had other things on their minds. In the twelfth century Geoffrey of Monmouth called that bigger landmass Greater Britain to distinguish it from Lesser Britain, which wasn’t Ireland but Brittany. And then they forgot about it all for another long stretch of time.
The phrase pops up again in the fifteenth century in a not very interesting context, then gets serious in the seventeenth century, when James united what were still and continued to be two separate countries, England and Scotland, under a single monarchy—and (although it’s not relevant to our discussion) claimed Ireland and France as well. In the next century, England and Scotland were united into a single country. Wales had been conquered some time before all this and the English had gotten into the habit of thinking it was part of England (the Welsh thought differently), so it didn’t get a separate mention right then.
James, by the way, was either the first or the sixth, depending on whether you’re standing in England or in Scotland when you count. I told you not to trust me with numbers—they go all shifty when I’m in the room. It should also be noted that James couldn’t spell for shit. He called himself the king of “Great Brittaine,”
Well, he was king. He got to spell it any way he wanted. Who was going to tell him he had it wrong? Besides, pretty much everyone did that back then, with pretty much any word they set their feathery pens to.
Fast forward to the days when Britain had an empire. The Great in Great Britain must’ve been handy and did take on the tone of a value judgment. But the origin? Big. Nothing but big.
These days, Great Britain means England, Wales, and Scotland. (The link here is basically a footnote in case you’re seriously interested. I could also link to some kid’s school paper, which for reasons I won’t stop to think about came up at the top of Google’s list, but I won’t.) And Cornwall, as the Cornish nationalists would remind us. Along with some of the surrounding small islands but not others, which are self-governing dependent territories.
Don’t ask.
It doesn’t include Northern Ireland. But in everyday speech, people often use British to cover the entire United Kingdom, which does include Northern Ireland. A website called Know Britain says that from a legal point of view this is inaccurate—and just afterward it notes that the phrase is often used to mean exactly that in legislation, especially in reference to nationality.
So there you go. Are you confused yet? Then my work is done. But because I don’t like to leave a topic until I’ve overdone it, I should add that Know Britain says the British Islands is a political term meaning the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man. But the British Isles is a geographical term meaning Great Britain, all of Ireland, and all the smaller islands around them. Don’t you just love this language?
Someday when I’m feeling particularly brave I’ll tackle the question of which categories of people would say, “I’m British,” and which ones would say, for example, “I’m English,” or “I’m Cornish” and so forth, and what all that means. Or may mean.
But for now we’ll end there . It may not all be good, but it’s great, isn’t it?
Great post! (My best to Great Eddie.)
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Thank you, and I’ll pass your greeting along to his Greatness as soon as he wakes up. He’s sleeping off a nap right now.
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it is craziness like this that makes me love this country :-D
I am also pleased to say that thanks to an OU course on identity I did know all this :-)
I would love to hear the thing about which people call themselves English or British (or Cornish)
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Also…Fast Eddie is definitely Great…and not only because he has grown :-D
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He’d be the first to agree.
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it is that superiority complex all cats come equipped with :-D
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It is. And we love them because they convince us that we have no choice.
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yes that is true :-) and they do enough friendly, endearing things to offset all the dead mice!
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…and the half dead ones. And the fully alive ones they got bored with or brought in to start a captive breeding program.
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yes, the ones that are alive enough to crawl under the floor boards and convince you for a long time that you have may mice!
although with 3 cats having live mice in the house for any length of time is unlikely!
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This is the part of having cats that I don’t love.
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yes, apparently I nearly turned into a 1950s housewife standing on a chair when a live mouse wandered through the living room the other day!
I maintain that is not what happened..but i did slightly pull my legs up…
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Mmmm hmmm. It’s surprising what lurks inside even the toughest of us.
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it is :-)
I think it was just the way it wandered around like it owned the place…it had been taking lessons from the cats!
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Now that is scary.
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it was a little!
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When they make an alliance like that….
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It will be like in Tom and Jerry when they gang up on the dog!!
They could conquer the world if only the cats could stop wanting to bat the mice…
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Hush. Not another word. They could be listening.
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*looks around nervously*
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I’ve been wanting to write that one for an age but at the last moment good sense takes over and I back away. I’ve got to get over that good-sense thing.
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Write it :-)
good sense is overrated…
(says me who as on many occasions blurted opinions in a less than diplomatic manner…)
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I’ve been known to do the same. Often. And, occasionally, look around thinking, Who said that? The act of writing, though, slows me down a bit.
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I often get half way through saying things to someone with the sinking feeling that they are going to own/like/believe in the thing I am currently deriding (or the opposite) but by that point I have to carry on regardless!
writing does sometimes slow the process, sometimes it also makes you a little remove from the process too allowing you to forget people actually read things…
less so now people actually read my blog mind you…
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My wife refers to my less-than-effective filters between brain and mouth as “Tim blurts.” So, there is something else we have in common, you and I. And I have a very hard time suffering fools gladly or telling the truth in anything other than a blunt fashion, although I AM working on that (and on practicing the Masonic value of silence).
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Hmmm. Silence. I never thought of that.
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I too am working on it, there was a time when I had no filters at all!! I was grieving and it removed all filters I had ever had I was very angry very often and just said whatever I thought…
I have improved greatly since then! My face however is apparently a different story…it apparently lets people know exactly what I think while I am still attempting to formulate a diplomatic answer!!
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Yeah. I’ve been warned never, ever to take up poker.
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that is probably wise for me too!
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My head is spinning a bit…but great info here, way more than little. ☺
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I have made it tempting to use the word great, haven’t I?
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I can’t wait until you explain who calls themselves what. We vacationed in Scotland several years ago, and I asked a docent at a museum the differences. She just looked at me as if I was a clueless, idiot American and never answered. Maybe she didn’t know???
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Hard to say for sure, but in Scotland, which very nearly voted to become an independent country–was it only last year?–I’d expect anyone to know the difference between, at a minimum, English and Scottish. And to give you an earful. Maybe more than you wanted to hear.
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So she did know the differences, but elected not to enlighten the clueless idiot American.
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It’s just a guess. Or being overly affected by (British) politeness, thought, Where do I start and who am I going to offend when I do? and as a result froze.
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Here in the US, I once encountered a man from Wales and when I described him as being British, he corrected me, and very pointedly said, “I am Welsh.”
So then I just started calling him the “creepy foreigner.” ;)
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Right. That impressed the hell out of him, didn’t it?
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That I called him British? He was offended. He impressed me as a twit. You know, the ancient grievances those folks have against one another doesn’t trouble my American mind :)
If someone called me a Texan, I would probably smile and show the good grace not to correct him/her, and I’d have a funny story to tell my friends when I got home.
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Actually I meant calling him the creepy foreigner, although I’ll admit to knowing when I wrote it that you (probably) didn’t call him that to his face.
To be serious for a brief moment, though, Texas didn’t conquer–oops, what state do you live in? Whichever it is, I’m reasonably sure Texas didn’t conquer it. The history of conquest here may be old but it’s still bitter. You, in all innocence, happened to stick your foot right into it and the guy could’ve cut you a little slack over it, but I do understand how deep the feelings run.
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From now on I’ll think of Eddie as His Highness Great Eddie.
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Okay, but I’m not going to tell him. Next thing I know, he’ll want his breakfast announced by me saying, “O greatest of Eddies, would you be pleased to break your fast now?” You know what cats are like.
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I’m pretty sure Great Eddie has already extended his rule throughout your house, surrounding islands and distant nation states. I doubt the sun ever truly sets on Great Eddie. One of my best friends lives in England and he explained why he started referring to himself as being English. I won’t steal your thunder, lest Great Eddie begin a conquest of Mimi and Mumu’s territory here in the states. Fun post. Have a good weekend.
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Hmmm. Does the sun ever set on Great Eddie. I’m inclined to think it does–and that he looks forward to it as an opportunity to extend his territory. I won’t give in to his demand for a boat, though, so Mimi and Mumu should be safe.
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This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10
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That’s exhausting. And educational. Not to mention amusing and a hell of a lot more thorough that I was. Thanks.
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I saw that video a while ago, courtesy of http://www.anglotopia.net and it certainly enlightened me about one or two aspects of “Britishness” that I hadn’t realised existed – and I’m thoroughly British. Well English actually – and a bit Welsh – oh, and a bit Cornish too…
Us “mainlanders” do get confused about the status of the Channel Islands and the isle of Man. For example, to the extent that some people have been daft enough to pay out money to dubious investment schemes that are based in those places and are then surprised when a) they lose their money and b) the standard UK financial compensation rules don’t apply, so they have to apply to the Jersey/Guernesy/Isle of Man financial regulators to (maybe) get their money back.
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I still don’t understand why that special status for the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man was set up.
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I think its because, although those parts of Britain have the monarch as their head of state (Elizabeth II at present, of course), they are not politically part of the United Kingdom, and have always had their own governments that are independent of Westminster in most respects – the major exceptions being matters of defence, foreign relations and currency. So they are responsible for their own financial matters – they decide their own taxes for example. As ever, its all bound up in history. When you come to think of it, it’s odd that the Channel Islands are “British”, given that they’re so close to France, but long ago, when the English kings lost most of their possessions in France, the Channel Islanders decided to keep their allegiance to the English crown and not the French one – and it’s been like that ever since. What a messy world it is.
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The world is messy, and somehow we–or at least I–keep expecting it to be neat. When will I learn? Thanks for the history. I’ve wondered about it in passing but never thought to look into it. I had assumed they were once more tightly tied to the central government but were cut loose at some point. Knowing that they’ve always had their own governments–that presents a more coherent picture.
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“God, not wanting to micromanage” Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :D
What caught me in your blog, Ellen, was caring what Americans think – then watching this video brings it home: “Great Britain” is so big, why would they care at all what we think? Glad I found you – you make me think, and that’s more important <3
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Glad you found your way here. Especially if you’re laughing.
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Thanks for this post. I enjoyed it.
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Thanks, Persia.
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Since British doesn’t include Northern Ireland, I always thought a new adjective should be created. But what should it be? Ukish?
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I’ve been wrong on more things than I want to review just now, but I don’t think Ukish has a future. I just don’t think so.
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I agree. The Boffin says that British does include Northern Ireland because of the British Isles. I just told him that his country of origin makes my head hurt.
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Yours isn’t the kind of statement a person can usefully argue with.
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I think it’s purely a matter of how it’s pronounced. No one will support UCK-ISH, but if it was YOOK-ISH or more obscurely YOOKEFFENISH, people would definitely adopt it to look smart. Just a thought.
Copyrighted,..
But just a thought.
(not really).
(about the copyrighted part).
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Register that copyright, quick, or you can’t sue for any serious amount of money.
Oops. That U.S. copyright law. I don’t know if it’s true here. Sorry. I’m bringing foreign ideas to a very UKish issue and should be very, very careful about meddling. At which point my accent and I are going to back cautiously out of the room and let the native born (or at least the people who came here young enough to acquire one of the many local accents) battle it out. But before I go, I do have to ask where the Fs came from in Yookeffenish.
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Northern Ireland is also known as Ulster. So would a person from there be called Ulsterian? I don’t know…
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I had to google this. Apparently, it’s the Unionists–historically, Protestants who favor union with Britain–who call Northern Ireland Ulster, and (I believe) they refer to themselves as Ulstermen. Presumably, some of them are women, but that’s a guess.
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As the daughter of a Sassenach and a Scot, living in McGregor, South Africa, far be it for me t weigh in on this argument. Princess Pearli sends greetings to Great Eddie.
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And he graciously replies in kind.
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Great post! ;) G-uno
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Thank you.
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I am seriously tempted to print out copies of this blog post so that I can make people read it any time they ask me about the different between GB and UK. Given that most people I have this conversation with insist on telling me I am English (by which they mean British) despite my telling them I am from Scotland, I feel like the GB and UK distinctions might be too advanced for them.
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Have you considered, when people tell you you’re English, not Scottish, simply ending the conversation and biting them instead? Think of the time you’d save.
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Ha ha! Play into that stereotype of ferocious Scots. Why not?
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I hadn’t thought about that. Its something I think about doing myself when discussions get too frustrating. Or throwing things.
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Great post. I was wondering where “Great” came from about a week ago, and was trying to think of any other country that might benefit from a boast in its name. Amazing Andorra, Super Senegal, Cool Cambodia?
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Why not? If a country can get the change past whatever they use for a government, the rest of the world sort of has to adopt the name. Remember when Burma became Myanmar?
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So, when I (a USA American) opined in a comment on an earlier post of yours that I thought it became GB when James united Scotland and England, I was correct? Cool! And the UK refers to GB plus Northern Ireland? Got it. Where do Canada, Australia and New Zealand figure into this? And why New Zealand? Is there an (old) Zealand?
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Working from the top down: 1. Congratulations. Remember that post about British quizzes? You just won this one. 2. Canada and friends are part of the Commonwealth, along with a bunch of other countries. For the full explanation, scroll down the comments until you find adadinsane’s link (it stands out because of the blue lettering) which will explain it all. Seriously. 3. As for old Zealand, that’s in the Netherlands and seems to be spelled Zeeland.
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By the way, on behalf of my feline overlords and feline overladies, I’m sending greetings to Great Eddie. (Actually, I hope they never hear about his greatness or they will demand such titles themselves.) :D
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I’ll relay their greetings and I think, on his behalf, I’m free to return them. But I agree: The less all this Great stuff gets out into the world, the better.
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The discussion about who within the UK is actually British reminds me of the one about the term Yankee. To someone from another country, a Yankee is an American from the USA. Here in the USA, it’s someone from the North (as defined at the time of the Civil War). For a Northerner, it’s someone from New England. For a New Englander, it’s someone from Vermont. Or so I’ve read. Point being, if you drill down far enough, there’s a core group, surrounded by several larger levels. I expect it’s that way with many countries.
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I was with you all the way until we got to Vermont, at which point I thought, It is?? Clearly I didn’t spend enough time in New England.
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The whole chain of meaning for Yankee was something I read online (probably facebook) years ago. I think there were 2 more steps in it that wound up with one village or town in Vermont, but I may be wrong. I may have even gotten the state wrong, although I don’t think so.
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It may even have wound up at one house. Maybe there’s only one real Yankee in the world.
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Actually, now that you mention it, I think it might have in that original telling of the tale. One Platonic Ideal Yankee, one Platonic Ideal Brit, one Platonic Ideal Scotsman, and so forth. And when they die, the mantle shifts to the next one, for there must be Only One. (no, wait, that’s the Highlander… or was it Buffy the Vampire Slayer … never mind)
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It’s probably in all of them. As long as it’s not me (and I’m entirely too weird to be the Platonic Ideal of anything), I’m okay with the system.
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Wow. I have a feeling I’d offend everyone in sight by calling them the wrong version of that land mass over there. Can’t wait for the next one about what they call themselves.
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Ain’t it fun?
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Got to bookmark this for future reference!!
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Given that the British get it wrong a lot of the time, I’m not sure we’re required to have it memorized.
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True!!
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Thanks for an interesting post and all interesting comments!
In Sweden we say “Storbrittanien” which in translation would be GB but I’m not sure what we mean by that. We also say England, but then I think we mean England and not Scotland, but I’m not sure of that either. It’s confusing. You have a beautiful big island anyhow, UK,GB, England, Scotland, Wales or whatever we should call you :)
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As a group, Americans are equally confused.
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Maybe that’s a good thing not knowing everything exactly :)
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Not knowing everything is a condition of finite beings, such as all of us. However, we Americans have an exceptional gift for thinking we know way, way, way more than we do and for denigrating those who have actually taken the time and put in the effort to learn about things before speaking or writing about them. It’s not a universal American trait (thank God, there are still many here who value education and intelligence), but it is a trait that far too many of my fellow Americans share.
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Or as Wild Thing occasionally sums it up, “I don’t know nothing and you don’t need to either.”
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I can say the same here from Sweden. We’re a very small country, but we think we know all best and that the world should adapt after our thoughts. That’s not the best way to learn new things :)
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Funny, but that’s not something I would have guessed about Sweden. You seem to have an image of an open society with an open mind.
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We have that too, but we’re good at talking about our greatness, but not always good at showing that we mean what we say :)
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Ah, yes. It’s so much easier to talk about.
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Exactly. But I hope we at least sometimes also do things right and not just talk :)
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EEP! HOW BIG HE HAS BECOME!!! GREAT EDDIE – hahahahahahaha, good, I mean great one!
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He has indeed. He still climbs to the top rack of the clothes dryer, but it bends now. One of these days it’s going to cave in under His Greatness.
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Aww, bless! <3
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How strange you should address that on your post, I’ve always wondered about that as well! By the way, Great Eddie is a beautiful cat. I have two cats myself, Mikko and Moina, but Mikko is my favorite. He is a character!
Thank you for visiting my blog again!
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I’ll tell Fast Eddie you said that. And he’ll agree. Is there anything as vain as a cat, and as easy to forgive for it? They’re wonderful creatures.
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Yes they are! As selfish, yet so worthy of loving.
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All true. I don’t know how they convince us to love them, the selfish wretches, but I do. And you do too, clearly.
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Just like babies do – they’re so CUTE. And then they do some funny antic or look at you with big, imploring eyes when they want something…Who could resist??
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Not me.
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It’s funny that I’m reading this now because just the other day I was wondering what the deal was with all of these terms- England, Great Britain the UK…. I never know what’s what. In fairness I did put it on my mental list of things to look up, just haven’t gotten there yet.
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It’s surprising how many Google searches are about this. It’s probably the most-asked question I get.
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Really? That’s interesting. I was watching The Last Kingdom and I was like ah ha, is that why they call it the United Kingdom? All of that fighting, separation, then the victor wanted it all for himself and declared it one united kingdom? Like I said, have yet to look it up but that seemed to make sense to me at the time…
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The name United Kingdom goes back to the 1700s, when James of Scotland became king of England as well, following Elizabeth I, who as the virgin queen reasonably enough had no children. That united England and Scotland. When Ireland became independent and Northern Ireland bailed out and became part of Britain. So that made it the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. Wales (this pisses me off and I’m not even Welsh) is considered part of England, since it was conquered. Ditto Cornwall.
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Interesting. Amazing how things that happened so long ago still have such an influence on the way things are today.
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True.
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Really? I thought the Welsh were quite nationalistic. I hear they now teach Welsh to all schoolchildren, in order to preserve the language.
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I should restate that: England considers Wales part of England–and in many technical ways it is (English law holds in Wales, for instance, but Scottish law is separate). But Wales was conquered by England, and so yes, the Welsh are, many of them, defiantly Welsh. Welsh is taught, in some place still widely spoken, and public signs are in both languages.
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Ellen, I love your posts when I get to read them. No, I’m not confused by the post. I was already confused. But thanks for the information.
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Thanks for that, Rosa. With some of what I write, I think that if you’re not confused, you’re not paying attention. But maybe that’s just me.
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Well, I have often told my family that I need to get a bracelet that says, “If found wandering return to…” So, I was already confused. It’s normal for me, these days. I love your blog.
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Thanks so much. I haven’t spent as much time with yours as I want to, but I admire what you’re doing with it.
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I’ve enjoyed reading your post and all the responses to it, and putting my two cents in occasionally. I hope to visit it more often!
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You’ll be very welcome. I love the comments people leave–they’re wonderful.
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I love your blog!
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Thank you. And of course I’m immediately in love with you.
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